Availability AMD Cards - 6900XT and 6800XT

nEo717

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Can we expect availability to ever recover for AMD 6900 XT and 6800 XT Cards before the next the Gen Cards launch (defining recover as in-stock at retail and e-tail at near MSRP)? -- Intel, are they close enough to a launch, and at that able to provide at least upper middle end cards which perhaps could help availability of AMD and nVidia Cards?

Clearly on the Scalping front, there must be a majority of shoppers willing to pay these high prices as it seems to have become its own (solid) market that doesn't seem to have near the availability issues -- Which then brings the question, are AMD and nVidia taking notice of this, and as a result will the next gen cards launch with healthily price increases (clearly people buy them for a lot more, just ask a scalper today)?
 
The market won't recover for at least 12+ months. We need Bitcoin to tank in order for us to have a fighting chance.
 
The market won't recover for at least 12+ months. We need Bitcoin to tank in order for us to have a fighting chance.
I thought it was Ethereum and some other minor coins - Bitcoin I thought had largely moved to ASICs

That said, AMD has a lot of 7nm production reserved at TSMC, but it’s all split between CPUs, APUs, custom SOC (consoles), and GPUs. All the others I suspect are more profitable so GPUs are getting the least allocation on available wafers
 
I thought it was Ethereum and some other minor coins - Bitcoin I thought had largely moved to ASICs

That said, AMD has a lot of 7nm production reserved at TSMC, but it’s all split between CPUs, APUs, custom SOC (consoles), and GPUs. All the others I suspect are more profitable so GPUs are getting the least allocation on available wafers
People are using Nicehash to mine Etherium, and are paid back in Bitcoin in return. With Bitcoin being currently valued well over $50k per coin, it's worth it to use Nicehash's platform (which they are pushing hard out the door with buying sponsorship on LTT and whatnot).

While BTC has moved to ASICs, it's still a major factor as to why we're suffering on the GPU front.
 
I've seen the occasional 6800XT and 6900XT in newegg shuffles (at 2x expected MSRP) as well as a few on the shelf at microcenter a few weeks ago (again, over a grand for the 6800XT - MSI GamingX if I recall). I suspect at those prices they're selling.. uhh... slightly slower than the NV competition.
 
I've seen the occasional 6800XT and 6900XT in newegg shuffles (at 2x expected MSRP) as well as a few on the shelf at microcenter a few weeks ago (again, over a grand for the 6800XT - MSI GamingX if I recall). I suspect at those prices they're selling.. uhh... slightly slower than the NV competition.
I guess that's one way of looking at it.

I would say, based on the sheer number of SKUs - there's more interest and product in the nVidia pipeline. There are roughly 3-4 nVidia SKUs for every 1 AMD SKU of an equivalent tier.

That said, you are right, the AMD card prices are... up there. But I think I disagree with your take away from that - I would say any price higher than MSRP doesn't indicate that it's a slow moving part, but rather the exact opposite and the higher it is from MSRP tends to indicate how fast it's moving off the shelves.

I have seen some 6800XT / 6900's in stock around Newegg and Amazon, but the prices are in the redonkulous range.. $2000+ for a 6900, $1800 for a 6800XT, a few 6800's for $1400+. So maybe those prices they aren't getting snatched immediately, unlike those $3000+ 3090's I've seen, but they are still getting snatched up, as the prices aren't dropping to move inventory. Someone is buying them.
 
People are using Nicehash to mine Etherium, and are paid back in Bitcoin in return. With Bitcoin being currently valued well over $50k per coin, it's worth it to use Nicehash's platform (which they are pushing hard out the door with buying sponsorship on LTT and whatnot).

While BTC has moved to ASICs, it's still a major factor as to why we're suffering on the GPU front.
Hmm.. but wouldn't the amount your being paid in BTC be proportional to the value of the ETH your mining? i.e. if the value of Eth drops... they could still be paying out in BTC, but you'd just be getting (much) less of it?

I admit I don't know a lot about crypto economics, but I can't see how mining one currency and the value of a second, totally independent currency are necessarily linked in the manner I think you're suggesting.
 
Hmm.. but wouldn't the amount your being paid in BTC be proportional to the value of the ETH your mining? i.e. if the value of Eth drops... they could still be paying out in BTC, but you'd just be getting (much) less of it?

I admit I don't know a lot about crypto economics, but I can't see how mining one currency and the value of a second, totally independent currency are necessarily linked in the manner I think you're suggesting.

There's a whole bunch of funny math and relationships that go on in the crypto world. With ETH/BTC alone, there's USD-BTC, USD-ETH and BTC-ETH combinations to consider and they can all move a bit independently (or together if they feel like it).

Most of what Nicehash does is they sell mining hash in exchange for bitcoin, so the payments are fairly straight forward for them (and whoever is buying the hash rate can use it for whatever they want to, in theory, making them more than they're spending). I'd also expect that they use unsold mining time to mine various alt coins and sell out to BTC to pay otherwise.

Of course, one could just mine ETH or whatever altcoin they want and either HODL or exchange - lots of options out there.
 
The market won't recover for at least 12+ months. We need Bitcoin to tank in order for us to have a fighting chance.
Mining is one thing, but a whole slew of global issues just made this whole mess in to a perfect storm.
It will def take a year or so to get things sorted.

This might not be a bad thing for AMD tho.
I don't really think they caught up with Nv yet as far as features and performance goes so it is to their advantage that we have a shortage and people buy anything out of desperation.
 
Two interesting questions, I figured I'd take a shot at both:

Can we expect availability to ever recover for AMD 6900 XT and 6800 XT Cards before the next the Gen Cards launch (defining recover as in-stock at retail and e-tail at near MSRP)? -- Intel, are they close enough to a launch, and at that able to provide at least upper middle end cards which perhaps could help availability of AMD and nVidia Cards?

Demand is greater than supply so this situation isn't going to go back to 'normal' until that changes. Demand could go down from say a mining crash, or supply could go up from say Intel producing GPUs or even just more global fab capacity coming online, or some combination of the two.

Intel producing GPUs would probably be the first thing that really helps. Primarily, they're going to be desired for lower-performance configurations as well as Linux systems that need graphics or better graphics than an IGP, as Intel has the desktop driver game down and they're the benchmark for open-source driver availability.

Intel also has broad support for the non-rendering features of their GPU cores, such as Quicksync, making them pretty attractive for those usecases if they hit below what Nvidia is charging for cards with their latest transcoding units. I'd consider them myself for that one.

Clearly on the Scalping front, there must be a majority of shoppers willing to pay these high prices as it seems to have become its own (solid) market that doesn't seem to have near the availability issues -- Which then brings the question, are AMD and nVidia taking notice of this, and as a result will the next gen cards launch with healthily price increases (clearly people buy them for a lot more, just ask a scalper today)?

So long as it remains a 'market', market economics should apply. Where supply exceeds demand, prices should fall; we don't know how quickly this will happen, of course, just that it should.

One big factor that would slow price normalization will be Nvidia's very tight control of their supply. They've been keen on increasing the cost of their GPUs and have been rather surprisingly successful at it even when there haven't been supply issues and coin-crazes.

On the other hand, AMD is keen to build marketshare; their GPUs are stronger than Intel's planned releases at the moment, but other than raw performance and their current install base, they're behind. Still, AMDs GPUs are definitely strong enough to be considered for most usecases, and the common driver and initial hardware complaints haven't been broadcast for their latest releases, so they may very well be poised to help satiate demand.

And Intel is the big question mark. Like Apple with the M1, Intel has been laying the groundwork for a competent entry into gaming GPUs for a decade, and despite the hurricane of embarrassment they've brought on themselves these past few years, their technology is fundamentally solid. If Intel can get their fabs figured, and that's one ginormous if, they're poised to essentially run AMD and Nvidia out of the low- and lower-midrange markets very quickly, since they're vertically integrated, turning sand to silicon all in house, and can simply price lower while leveraging their dominating CPU sales channels.
 
AMD and nVidia are selling everything they make (graphic cards) for the most part -- So mining, do both companies see that as the more favorable Market in the long term over the PC Gaming Market? Have, or will we see PC Gamers give and make the move to console gaming, or simply pull back from gaming if this trend continues into 2022 or beyond?

I've been in PC / Tech Industry a long time -- once consoles (xbox/Playstation) came into the picture it seems all we heard/hear is that PC Gaming is dead -- Yet, it continues to grow -- Which could this be what causes (at some point at least) that pull back in the PC Market and it goes on the decline.

Another interesting stat would be to see the percent of new cards today going into the retail channel vs direct, or into distribution directly for mining -- It sort of looks as many brands have very little product going into normal channels, perhaps its sold well ahead of making to the normal channels?
 
So mining, do both companies see that as the more favorable Market in the long term over the PC Gaming Market? Have, or will we see PC Gamers give and make the move to console gaming, or simply pull back from gaming if this trend continues into 2022 or beyond?

I think GPU manufacturers see mining as a double edged sword.

Gaming is obviously their main market - all their marketing still is oriented that way. It's stable, reliable, and has reasonably good margins. Both nVidia and AMD do have mining products (the new nV CMP lineup, AMD has always marketed their Pro lineup as mining-friendly and not deterred their mainstream lineup), but it's a very limited presence with almost no marketing umph behind it.

Miners, on the other hand... the margins are through the roof - but only for resellers. The GPU manufacturers don't necessarily see extra profit on sales, just brisker sales. And they are a very mercurial market: when it's boom, it's great. When it's bust, the used/gray market floods channels and inventory just sits. Both sides have been stung by mining busts, where they had ramped up production to meet the boom, then the bust hit almost overnight and inventory was left sitting for months. That was a huge hit on the balance sheets.

As far as question #2 - console availability isn't really any better than GPU availability right now. So I don't think that non-availability of GPUs will necessarily lead to people jumping over to consoles, at least in the near term. Maybe it availability eases up some on the console side, but right now AMD is splitting their production queues on a limited 7nm capacity across way too many products -- AMD needed badly to diversify their lineup with respect to process node, and hasn't done that, and it's really holding them back in a lot of arenas.
 
I think GPU manufacturers see mining as a double edged sword.

Gaming is obviously their main market - all their marketing still is oriented that way. It's stable, reliable, and has reasonably good margins. Both nVidia and AMD do have mining products (the new nV CMP lineup, AMD has always marketed their Pro lineup as mining-friendly and not deterred their mainstream lineup), but it's a very limited presence with almost no marketing umph behind it.

Miners, on the other hand... the margins are through the roof - but only for resellers. The GPU manufacturers don't necessarily see extra profit on sales, just brisker sales. And they are a very mercurial market: when it's boom, it's great. When it's bust, the used/gray market floods channels and inventory just sits. Both sides have been stung by mining busts, where they had ramped up production to meet the boom, then the bust hit almost overnight and inventory was left sitting for months. That was a huge hit on the balance sheets.

As far as question #2 - console availability isn't really any better than GPU availability right now. So I don't think that non-availability of GPUs will necessarily lead to people jumping over to consoles, at least in the near term. Maybe it availability eases up some on the console side, but right now AMD is splitting their production queues on a limited 7nm capacity across way too many products -- AMD needed badly to diversify their lineup with respect to process node, and hasn't done that, and it's really holding them back in a lot of arenas.


Good point on Console availability -- Card manufactures need to give in on miners and create direct channel allowing both manufactures to know who miners are, and a direct source for miners to go to get mining hardware -- Give reasons for miners to use their own channels, including rewards and price points etc...

Likewise, I'm starting to lean on the side of Gaming Card Manufactures focusing on selling direct -- EVGA started down the path well with direct ordering that including active wait lists which give them some sort of direct idea of true demand -- If all (most at least) manufacturers did this, its highly possible to better manage events like this.

It will be interesting seeing (if mining dips) all those cards hit eBay, Amazon, and NewEgg as like new.
 
I think GPU manufacturers see mining as a double edged sword.
Perceived demand is a double-edged sword, I'd say.

Any excess demand has to be weighed with the risks of both not meeting the demand and also increasing production to meet demand.

Once manufacturers start hitting production capacity limits, and that's forecasted limits as they're placing future orders when doing so, they run the risk of overproducing and the negative associated ROI.

In general, we can say that production while rocky lately has been on a steady increase, but demand has rocketed up even more, and for a variety of reasons that include but also extend far beyond mining.

The pandemic is one: while many people have been out of work, many other people have been working, drawing salaries, even higher ones due to overtime, and have had fewer outlets for their disposable income. Given that GPUs were a luxury item in the first place and it's easy to see how increases in existing sources of demand could have come about.

Then there's AI / ML / general datacenter compute, and this isn't going anywhere but up either. GPUs are still far more capable for heavy compute workloads than CPUs and unlike custom silicon that would be even faster, GPUs are already available and the infrastructure needed to take advantage of their capabilities is well understood. And you can get them anywhere from big iron down to near-ultrabook laptop form-factors and even in mini-PCs, which is helpful for 'field' workloads where the compute is needed well away from datacenters.


And mining itself: well, mining causes a problem for GPU manufacturers in that as mentioned it's extremely fickle in terms of demand, which tends to oscillate between the extremes either causing empty shelves or extremely full ones.

Further, to the point about trying to 'pick one's customers', well, this is very hard to do legally, and likely impossible to do for GPUs. Literally anyone can be a 'miner', anyone could both game and mine on the same GPU hardware, and even if there were some check put into place, the legal questionability of that check would make it near moot. Would AMD or Nvidia sue their customers for buying gaming GPUs and then not using them to game?

I get, share, and really appreciate the idea of trying to sell GPUs to gamers first, I just can't imagine how it would actually happen. From a business and market economics perspective, raising prices is actually how this is done!

So mining, do both companies see that as the more favorable Market in the long term over the PC Gaming Market?

I answered this in part above, but I wanted to add a bit more: mining is pure speculation. It's one of the worst forms of speculation too, since it results in a technological product that derives its value on the perception that it's unique, as a gross oversimplification.

For GPU manufacturers to dedicate parts to mining would be... stupid. They can absolutely 'tune' for mining throughout their technology stack but the production of dies that couldn't be put to other purposes is almost certainly out of the question unless the traditional market for GPUs dries up or excess fab capacity sees a massive increase.

The production of mining-specific SKUs like we're seeing now and have seen a few iterations of already is likely more of a 'feeler'. The GPU dies themselves are the same, but they're packaged in a way that makes them unsuitable for other uses. The sales of these will help gage actual demand for mining.

Have, or will we see PC Gamers give and make the move to console gaming, or simply pull back from gaming if this trend continues into 2022 or beyond?
'PC gaming' or desktop gaming is pretty weird. In a lot of ways from the outside it doesn't make much sense, or at least it's not a destination most would have predicted!

And we still really can't. In a few decades everything could change, or not. Who can say?

Overall, it's certainly reasonable to ask the question though. I'm glad you asked it as otherwise I wouldn't really be considering it, and I'll paraphrase here:

What happens if the 'hardware' for PC gaming, that being CPUs that can actually run games well and GPUs tuned for rendering, just becomes unavailable?

As a dedicated, still mostly young PC gamer, that's a hard one for me to contemplate. I know that the hardware on my desk now isn't made to last, at least not decades. The mechanical parts are destined to fail simply through their own operation and the electrical components would have to be very well designed and protected to keep going, and however well they're designed, I know also that I cannot afford the proper protection. I don't even know what it would take, in terms of power filtering, temperature controls, EMI and other radiation shielding, to keep the electronics going indefinitely, while things like LEDs and the TFTs in LCDs are certainly going to wear out.

And if there weren't replacements available for them, what would we do?
 
Seems as bold (not saying they are wrong, or right) statement from Sapphire:
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On top of the pandemic driving a lack of resources that makes supply of the best graphics cards and other electronics scarce, the growth of cryptocurrency mining means gamers also have to fight cryptominers for GPUs. This has brought “frustration” to the folks at Sapphire Technology, according to Edward Crisler, North American PR representative.

During The Tom’s Hardware Show on Thursday, Crisler said the graphics card market was made by PC gamers and, thus, graphics cards should go to them, not shoppers looking to cash in on cryptocurrency.

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The comments in this thread all have good merit on this topic (such good information, thoughts, wisdom, and opinions) -- its not an easy topic to resolve -- Challenge I'm running into is more when building PC's (on side) for friends, gamers, etc... When it ends up that waiting (on graphic card or CPU), trying to talk with them about that availability, its a rough discussion -- its like we've become so used to getting what we want, and now, anything else and, well...

Our Nation (at end of the day) has been blessed to have taken such a role it has in the Technology boom and the resulting access our Nations Consumers have had to it, at least up till recently. Think I need to learn to either say no, or find a way to break it that the parts cost double if want it now from scalper a lot better than I do, lol...
 
The Covid mess is going to let up, and while the AI / ML revolution will keep going, manufacturing will almost certainly catch up too.

TSMC can't expand fast enough, and as confounding as it seems, neither can Intel, while Globalfoundries has announced that they're finally going to make the jump to the 7nm node that they've been complaining was just too expensive for them these past few years. And then there are at least a dozen other larger fab firms, the EU wanting to get more in the game with increased local production, and the big one, Samsung, that looks pretty hungry for business.

And given the geopolitics and geoeconomics that are affected by the stability of East Asia, many countries on other continents are looking toward having alternative supply chains available for all levels of technology, and while that's going to result in some duplication of effort, it's also going to result in more global supply and more alternatives too!
 
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