Should I buy a 5800x or wait for the 3d cache version? AM4 last hurrah

Space_Ranger

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We should hope - with PCIe 5.0, DDR5, and USB4 (~Thunderbolt) all on tap, so long as they don't make the same mistakes that were made with AM4 boards (small BIOS chips, sub-par power delivery, sub-par... everything else), they should be golden.
From your written word to God's ears! I pray this is what happens!
 

LazyGamer

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So, some TeamGroup DDR4-3600 C14 2 x 16GB DIMMs at... DDR4-3800 C14 (but 2T), CPU running stock and error-free, boosting up to 45.5GHz single-core and ~4.40GHz multi-core under a 280mm AIO:

1651408582002.png

Seeing up to 145W package power draw so far. Note that this is under more intense stress testing, in this case y-cruncher, which is similar to Prime95 and slams both CPU and RAM together harder than say Cinebench ever could.

Main voltage that's been pushed outside of 'normal' is the memory (VDIMM) voltage, currently at 1.52v. I received the memory cooler I ordered off the bay from China for my 12700k DDR5 rig (2x 60mm), so these DDR4 DIMMs are being cooled using the Corsair Dominator (2x 50mm) cooler I had used before.

As it stands, I can improve the cooling a bit, and I'd like to try undervolting the CPU if I can. Currently running ASUS' AGESA 1207 beta BIOS that came out a few days ago.
 

Peter_Brosdahl

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So, some TeamGroup DDR4-3600 C14 2 x 16GB DIMMs at... DDR4-3800 C14 (but 2T), CPU running stock and error-free, boosting up to 45.5GHz single-core and ~4.40GHz multi-core under a 280mm AIO:

View attachment 1590

Seeing up to 145W package power draw so far. Note that this is under more intense stress testing, in this case y-cruncher, which is similar to Prime95 and slams both CPU and RAM together harder than say Cinebench ever could.

Main voltage that's been pushed outside of 'normal' is the memory (VDIMM) voltage, currently at 1.52v. I received the memory cooler I ordered off the bay from China for my 12700k DDR5 rig (2x 60mm), so these DDR4 DIMMs are being cooled using the Corsair Dominator (2x 50mm) cooler I had used before.

As it stands, I can improve the cooling a bit, and I'd like to try undervolting the CPU if I can. Currently running ASUS' AGESA 1207 beta BIOS that came out a few days ago.
I'm pretty much running everything out of the box with a Corsair Vengeance LPX 3600 MHz CL18 kit. Mine only hits 4450 MHz but I haven't tried to tune anything at all. The 360 AIO has been amazing in various benches and with the fans maxed I haven't seen temps go much more than 70-72c. Usually hangs around 50-60c in games like Crysis 1-2 remastered, Horizon Zero Dawn, Metro Exodus, SOTTR.

For the most part I'm seeing 10-30 FPS increases in various games over the 3700X I had before. It's kind of jaw-dropping to see the difference. I definitely underestimated how much CPU bottleneck I had going on and that one was usually hanging around 4200-4300 MHz. Obviously the 3D cache and slightly higher clocks are helping where they can.

I've been benching games in 5120x1440 and then using DLSS at ultra-performance so the 3090 can crank out the frames and put more burden back on the CPU. I know I could do the standard 1080p stuff but it's neat to see the CRG9 get hammered with frames and everything is buttery smooth. I did some tests with Time Spy and Cinebench but mostly have been benching games since that's the main reason for the upgrade. The most demanding games are hanging around 70-120 FPS and some older games like Batman Arkham Knight, Dirt 5 hit around 130-190 FPS on max settings. I tried the new Cyberpunk benchmark last night with RT stuff at max, DLSS on auto, and most other settings maxed, and it averaged 50-55 FPS but looked amazing.

Side note: I'd always theorized that the Wraith Prism cooler may have been throwing some hot air onto the backplate of the GPU since it was barely an inch away from it. Whether it be from switching to the AIO, or the combination of its 3 x 120 mm fans replacing the 2x 200 mm fans in the top of the case, I'm seeing the GPU operate at around 5-10c cooler now.
timespy2.JPG
timespy1.JPG
 

Peter_Brosdahl

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Of note on this, the Cyberpunk built in bench is not very representative of game performance as it's all indoor. Go drive a car around the city for a bit, and consider using DLSS set to quality.
Yep, I'll be doing that sometime today. I figured there'd be parts of the game that would tank it further, by a lot even, but that brief bit was nice looking. I'm sure I'll have to dial numerous things back.
 

Brian_B

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Side note: I'd always theorized that the Wraith Prism cooler may have been throwing some hot air onto the backplate of the GPU since it was barely an inch away from it. Whether it be from switching to the AIO, or the combination of its 3 x 120 mm fans replacing the 2x 200 mm fans in the top of the case, I'm seeing the GPU operate at around 5-10c cooler now.
This is the biggest case for AIO's that I see over air coolers. I see so many people say "Air coolers are just as good and usually less expensive" -- which is true, if you just look at one piece in isolation. For the total system, water cooling lets you direct exactly where the heat gets exhausted and usually results in better system temps overall - particularly RAM/VRMs which are often right next to the CPU.

Everyone always thinks they have their case ventilation set up so well this isn't a factor, but unless you have an open test bench, that is rarely case. (hah @ pun). I do concede that many motherboards assume that a HSF is being used, and rely on the spillover air flow from them to help cool otherwise passive components, so sometimes an AIO may result in higher temps there, but if you really do have sufficient case ventilation (which, of course, everyone ~always~ does) that shouldn't happen.
 

Niner51

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This is the biggest case for AIO's that I see over air coolers. I see so many people say "Air coolers are just as good and usually less expensive" -- which is true, if you just look at one piece in isolation. For the total system, water cooling lets you direct exactly where the heat gets exhausted and usually results in better system temps overall - particularly RAM/VRMs which are often right next to the CPU.
I have switched back and forth quite a bit between high end air coolers (Mostly Noctua) and some nice AIO's lately myself. My findings are the temps are cooler not so much with the CPU itself, but as you mentioned the system overall. I always use a rear exhaust fan in all my cases, but having air exhausting out of the top is crucial in my experiences. Right now my AIO is set up in a push/pull configuration and it has dropped the temps a few degrees in my current system. Another thing to consider is these new GPU's are pumping out the heat off the back plate quite a bit as well and I feel with an air cooler you are sucking in some of that heat through the cooler itself which in turn does affect the CPU temps occasionally, whereas an AIO won't be as affected. I noticed switching back to a large case (7000X) has helped with my temps as well. Just throwing my .02.
 

LazyGamer

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This is the biggest case for AIO's that I see over air coolers. I see so many people say "Air coolers are just as good and usually less expensive" -- which is true, if you just look at one piece in isolation. For the total system, water cooling lets you direct exactly where the heat gets exhausted and usually results in better system temps overall - particularly RAM/VRMs which are often right next to the CPU.
This really does depend on what you're doing with the system - in many instances, it's simply not a problem as the current loads are not that high. But if you're trying to overclock a top-end CPU on a middling board, well, you probably missed a planning step already.

For Z690, nearly all of the boards have power stages that are so overbuilt that they don't need cooling. The CPUs available for LGA1700 simply cannot pull enough current through the board for VRM temps to become an issue even with the best available AIOs.

Now, let's say your board isn't built for that - let's say that it can't be, due to space restrictions, as ITX boards usually are. The ROG Strix X570-I Gaming I'm using has two fans - one for the VRM, and one for the chipset.

Also, one other advantage for AIOs - working around the CPU socket. By the time you get an HSF that could handle up to 300W, your 'breathing room' is gone, especially if you're using a larger GPU.
 

MadMummy76

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Damned scalper retailers make it impossible for me to buy an 5800X3D they have the audacity to sell it for 80% more than the 5800X, well it's not 80% better, is it?
 

LazyGamer

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Damned scalper retailers make it impossible for me to buy an 5800X3D they have the audacity to sell it for 80% more than the 5800X, well it's not 80% better, is it?
Well, the reason I had no problem picking one up: it's the 1% and 0.1% lows. That could be worth 200% or 500% or more to some folks because that's the kind of uplift you feel.
 

Peter_Brosdahl

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I just got lucky. I registered for notification on BB, B&H, and Newegg around two hours before launch and as soon as I got a response I instantly logged in and ordered. I did keep track and noticed that about an hour after launch they were all sold out except for some combo bundles on Newegg and about an hour or so after that only a scalper still had them in stock.

It's kind of the point that I was trying to make in the 4090 thread that unless manufacturers can make enough to truly flood the market, or put hard limits and measures similar to what EVGA does, the consumer is still going to suffer. It doesn't matter what the product is or if it relates to crypto or not, from electronics to household products, scalping is a global parasite that affects us all, one way or another.
 

Brian_B

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It's kind of the point that I was trying to make in the 4090 thread that unless manufacturers can make enough to truly flood the market, or put hard limits and measures similar to what EVGA does, the consumer is still going to suffer.
Hmm.

I’m ok with a new product selling out on Day 1. That’s kind of to be expected.

I’m even ok if that product is still selling out for a couple weeks. Maybe as long as a month… maybe. Barring items that are supposed to be scarce, like limited edition runs - not saying you need perfect availability, but your product shouldn’t be so scarce it simply can’t be found either after the initial launch.

Go beyond that though, and it’s a problem. Either the company really screwed up their manufacturing plans, some unavoidable act of god hit, or there is funny business going on somewhere.

I think a big part of the current issue is that retailers don’t give a **** if bots scrape every unit instantly; and the pandemic moving things to almost entirely online just made it easier for them. Low stocking overhead, can move straight from a warehouse, don’t need to run advertising, and no need to discount - what is there not to like from their perspective; they just slap labels on the boxes and let the brown trucks carry them off — they don’t really care if the labels are all the same address or not. I would place that in the Funny Business category.

And another part of that is us, as consumers, accepting it and even being complicit.
 
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Brian_B

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I would place that in the Funny Business category.
To illustrate that point somewhat: Playstation

PS4 first year sales were 17.3 Million consoles. You had some issues finding on one the shelves for the first 2-3 months; it was a hot commodity, but it all mellowed out. About 6 months in, if my memory serves, they were pretty well in stock handily at most retailers: you could walk into Best Buy and get one off the shelf most any day.

So. Here we are with the PS5. A bit more than a year out and you still can't find one to be had anywhere.

I don't buy the "Chip Shortage" argument. Sony sold 17.8 Million consoles the first year of the PS5 -- so they made more than they had made with the PS4.

You could say demand from being cooped up because of the pandemic - maybe. But people aren't cooped up anymore, lockdowns are mostly lifted (except China and North Korea, sorry you guys). Still no stock, anywhere.

While those two things played into it, and had some effect, I don't think you can place blame squarely there.

I think this falls squarely in the retail shenanigans: scalpers got the head start, and the pandemic drug it out long enough for them to be able to make a cottage industry of it. If they can keep supply scarce, people will turn to the gray market as there is no other choice. It's not Jimmy the 9th grader down the street flipping a couple of units on Ebay - it's semi-professional botnet runners who are buying these things in semi-bulk - and they have had enough time to get large enough to have resources they can keep doing it for a while.

I blame retailers because they allow it, and I blame consumers because they enable it.

I fear it will be the same thing with GPUs, or just computer parts in general - there the market is much more varied, so it's harder to lock down than it is a single (or two) SKU market. And we are seeing prices fall because the miners are out, so demand is much more in line with supply - but let's wait before we all cheer until we see if prices can actually start hitting original MSRPs, if we start seeing retail sales events, etc. I did see a game bundle promotion from AMD recently, so there is hope, but street prices still aren't in line with MSRPs quite yet - especially in cases where the MSRP wasn't adjusted post-pandemic.
 
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