Toyota is developing a manual transmission for potential use in future electric cars under its luxury Lexus brand, British car enthusiast publication Evo has learned.
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Lexus Developing Manual Transmission for Electric Cars
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Brian_B
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For people willing to pay extra for ... reasons. I mean, I certainly understand the appeal of a manual transmission -- when you are in the mood to drive, it's much more engaging and fun. But yeah, an electrical drive motor just doesn't need one - it has more than enough torque on the low end and speed on the high end that... it's just another part that gets in the way. I guess you could always stick a pedal on the floorboard and a stick in the center console that don't really do anything and you could pretend your shifting gears... even make some zoomy sounds over the speakers as you push the accelerator down again... But it's totally useless for an EV.
Can't wait to see the subscription plan they put on this: Unlock 3rd gear for $30/month!
Brian_B
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So, I saw this EV offroad UTV. It was basically a Gator or Pioneer - two seater with a small bed in the back. A little 20hp electric motor and some lithium cells under the seats. A glorified golf cart really.
It was a cheap import from China - the floorboard was made out of a recycled billboard, still had the advert printed on the underside. Sad part was there was a California company that painted the whole thing white and slapped their stickers all over it - trying to pass it off as Made in the USA. I felt bad for the guys that bought it, and pretty upset at the company who was very obviously just scamming some grant applications and flirting with fraud.
The motor was mated to a small 5-speed manual, it had a little clutch and everything.
The reason they did that in the EV was that the motor could only draw like 20A of current, otherwise it would fry the wiring or battery or motor or something. I guess they figured that a mechanical clutch + transmission was cheaper than a bit larger electrical cabling -- or more likely, the engineering to come up with the right sizing without catching stuff on fire.
DrezKill
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I heard Dodge is thinking about doing the same thing with their Challenger replacement that's an EV. I don't see the point. I'm not into EVs, and I very much enjoy manual transmissions, but if I had an EV I'd at least like to use one of the advantages, and that includes not having a transmission, and less drivetrain components in general.
Dodge also doesn't want their EV to be quiet, they want it to be loud like a real muscle car, so they are experimenting with noises. The current one makes it sound like an robot predatory cat roaring, it sounds so f*cking stupid. I know the coming EV apocalypse sucks Dodge, but good gawd. Just, no. Stop it man, just stop it.
Dodge also doesn't want their EV to be quiet, they want it to be loud like a real muscle car, so they are experimenting with noises. The current one makes it sound like an robot predatory cat roaring, it sounds so f*cking stupid. I know the coming EV apocalypse sucks Dodge, but good gawd. Just, no. Stop it man, just stop it.
Grimlakin
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The audible experience has been such an intrinsic part of the automotive experience for so long that it's very hard to just abandon it. And to many consumers it's still a part of the experience that they want... EVEN if they are electric Vehicles.
From the rumble of a V8, to the high pitched whine of a rotary at 9k RPM. To the PshhhPshhh of the turbo 4, to the Supercharge Wine of a force induction V8 or V6 screaming through a tunnel. All of these to many are sweet awesome sounds that represent power and performance in some fashion.
To loose all of the sound is a sad thing.
Personally... build whistling into the body panels of a car that are adjustable. So a flap exposes it when you want and as you accelerate you get this wooshing whistling noise generated outside of the car. Give owners options on how to use/engage with it. Make the channels able to support different mods for different sorts of sounds.
But don't make it a piped in or fake noise to represent 'power'. Make it something the car DOES when you accelerate not something you MAKE it do to fake the feeling.
DrezKill
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I know I can't and won't. I can't stand fake sounds for EVs or engine noise piped in through the speakers. What I would do if I had an EV though is make it sound like a TIE Fighter.
I am extremely sad about it.
If I wanted Shifting and engine roar, I’d get a 69 Chevelle SS.
If I wanted jam you into the seat acceleration, I don’t want to screw around with fake shifting and fake engine noise, just give me a model S.
In all honesty though, all I’m really shopping for is something that fits 3 car seats and has the low maintenance with high mpg.
If I wanted jam you into the seat acceleration, I don’t want to screw around with fake shifting and fake engine noise, just give me a model S.
In all honesty though, all I’m really shopping for is something that fits 3 car seats and has the low maintenance with high mpg.
Zarathustra
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I love driving cars with manual transmissions. It was all I drove for over a decade.
I just don't see what value they add in an electric car which has a motor that has enough flat power band to not require a transmission at all.
The existence of transmissions, manual or automatic, is there to overcome a limitation in internal combustion engines, where they have relatively narrow power bands, and in order to be useful need transmissions to not over-rev or stall.
WIth an electric motor where this is not the case, any transmission, manual or automatic is pointless. It just adds weight and drivetrain losses without any benefit.
If you like electric cars, but your fragile ego depends so much on showing the world that you can operate a car with a manual transmission, you can just install a fake one in the center console. No one will ever know
This was a product idea that was developed by someone without any engineering knowledge what so ever, and is a prime example of why we need experts in the domain of the business in leadership roles, not just marketing execs and bean counters.
The Germans got this one right. If you run an automotive company you should probably have a PhD in automotive engineering or an adjacent, closely similar field. When finance and marketing people run things you wind up with boneheaded ideas like this.
I just don't see what value they add in an electric car which has a motor that has enough flat power band to not require a transmission at all.
The existence of transmissions, manual or automatic, is there to overcome a limitation in internal combustion engines, where they have relatively narrow power bands, and in order to be useful need transmissions to not over-rev or stall.
WIth an electric motor where this is not the case, any transmission, manual or automatic is pointless. It just adds weight and drivetrain losses without any benefit.
If you like electric cars, but your fragile ego depends so much on showing the world that you can operate a car with a manual transmission, you can just install a fake one in the center console. No one will ever know
This was a product idea that was developed by someone without any engineering knowledge what so ever, and is a prime example of why we need experts in the domain of the business in leadership roles, not just marketing execs and bean counters.
The Germans got this one right. If you run an automotive company you should probably have a PhD in automotive engineering or an adjacent, closely similar field. When finance and marketing people run things you wind up with boneheaded ideas like this.
DrezKill
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The Porsche Taycan is an EV that has a two-speed transmission. I don't know sh1t about this car, but I have never heard of an EV with a transmission before. I wonder why it has one.
This, exactly.
Yupz.
D4mn straight.
Zarathustra
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I did not know that. I can see something like this being marginally useful in certain corner cases. A multi-speed auto or manual box wouldn't, but something that switches you from high speed lower torque mode, to higher torque lower speed mode could have some corner case usefulness I guess. I bet it is pretty limited though.
You know, Toyota used to be better at this stuff. Their product development was always a little on the boring side, but they really used to focus on manufacturing excellence like it was nobody's business, and that went straight to the top. The whole world tried to mimic the Toyota Production System (TPS) and those who did it well were pretty much universally met with high degrees of success.
I'm guessing this effort was some pet project of some middle manager supporting Lexus, and not a real Toyota initiative. It is very unlike them to develop gimmicks for gimmicks sake.
That said, in the last decade or so, Toyota really hasn't been their good old boring reliable selves, messing up even in what used to be considered their strongest areas of manufacturing, so who knows. Maybe they need to find their way again.
Brian_B
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I could see it in a Hi/Lo type arrangement - in the case of the Taycan something like Eco / Sport gearing to select from. - you don't always want or need 5sec acceleration and could re-gear it to get a bit better battery life.
That said, I don't know if this is how it's actually used, and I admit it seems like something that could also be done electronically with an electric torque controller / governor.
Brian_B
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I think the pandemic F'd 'em up royally -- TPS relied on a lot of zero-inventory Just-In-Time production, and between labor issues and logistics challenges, all of that got pretty well blown up.
That, and a steadfast refusal of pure EV and focus on Hybrids (which, I agree with entirely, but market sentiment and many state regulations seems to disagree with Toyota and myself).
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Probably one of the things that led to this even being a thing. You know, wheels falling off a brand-new car, and an EV SUV at that.
https://www.thefpsreview.com/2022/0...z4x-ev-from-owners-following-a-safety-recall/
I love the idea of Hybrids, but I hate the fact it's two separate powertrains begging for something to break. Does anyone sell a Hybrid that is infact a pure electric vehicle with a gas powered generator to charge the battery?
I think the Volt was like that. But to my knowledge most hybrids aren't. Maybe that is why hybrids are vanishing from the market... too bad bc I kind of wanted one, just not a Prius
Brian_B
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Same boat here - PHEV seems like best of all worlds, but the 2 different drive trains is ... overly complex.
No idea why they don't use the ICE as a recharge - it wouldn't even need to be 100% charge rate, it just needs to be something over highway power draw.