Phanteks Expands Glacier One D30 AIO Cooler Lineup with 420mm Model

[Riccochet]

Also worth mentioning that AIO's have terrible pumps in them. They don't move a lot of volume, and there isn't a lot of volume of coolant to move. This can allow heat soak in the block and loop. The radiator probably is not the limiting factor when it comes to AIO's and modern CPU's. You see much better results with a similar sized radiator and D5 pump/res and dedicated CPU block. More coolant volume, more volume of coolant being moved.

Between GN and J2C there is enough information out there to support this. AIO's are better than air, but no where near as efficient as a custom loop. With how current gen CPU's are designed to run right up to max temp a custom loop will sustain boost clocks for much much longer, and possibly higher.

 

[LazyGamer]

If this is the case, and the IHS is 100% the limiting factor, there wouldn't be improvements going to a custom loop with a top end water block. While I haven't been following waterblock development over the last year or two, my assumption is high end waterblocks, with a pump like a D5, are still dramatically better than an AIO.

This depends on how limiting the AIO is versus the CPU, and how hard you're pushing the CPU - for example, most AIOs can handle a CPU up to 300W of power draw. But at that point, you're usually at the top of the V/F curve, so going any further means drawing exponentially more power for very little gain, if the CPU even has any more to give.

The 'dramatically better' is in terms of CPU package temperature, which may or may not provide additional performance potential, but most of the benefit is in terms of noise.

And the biggest effect from using a custom loop is this: when both the CPU and GPU are in the loop, and since neither is usually running full tilt (one is inevitably bottlenecked), there's cooling capacity to spare. Or, put another way, noise is kept even lower.

Additionally, AIOs typically have very little fluid, so they have very little thermal capacity - they heat up very fast. Custom loops may have 1L or more of coolant, and will likely be using copper components all around, which also add to the disparity in thermal capacity.

 

[Brian_B]

So there aren't that many moving (figuratively) parts in a cooling system

The CPU die generates the heat. (Heat generated)

The IHS spreads the heat from the die over an area, and provides a larger mating surface for the block (thermal transfer - coefficient of thermal conductivity)

The block transfers heat from the IHS (or die, for those brave souls) to the coolant (thermal transfer - coefficient of thermal conductivity)

The coolant is pumped around in a loop (thermal movement - mass flow)

The radiator transfers heat from the coolant to the air (thermal transfer - coefficient of thermal conductivity)

Fans pull air through the radiator for that heat transfer (thermal movement - mass flow)

Air now holds the heat generated by the CPU and is available to dump into that "infinite" reservoir that is your room (Heat removed - infinite sink at Ambient air temp)

Heat goes in, heat goes out - it will all reach some equilibrium temperature based on all these factors.

It's all just a few thermodynamics equations from there.

 

[Endgame]

Just poking around a little bit at Tech Powerup (one of the few sites left I know of doing custom block reviews), a custom loop with high end block, D5, and 360mm radiator, is worth 15-20 c better average core temp than AIOs. Now, frustratingly, TPU doesn't use the same processor / system for testing blocks vs testing AIOs, so the numbers aren't directly comparable either. Lets say high end blocks are 10 degrees better than high end AIOs. We kind of get something like this:

Air basically tops out around Peerless Assassin / D15.
You can drop temp 3-5ish degress from air with a 280mm AIO.
You can drop temp 1-2ish dgress from 280mm AIO to 360mm AIO.
You can drop temps 10ish degrees from 360mm AIO to Custom Loop.

These numbers can be swung a few degress in either direction based on fan noise.

The 360mm does seem to be an upgrade from 280, and a 420 will probably be a small upgrade from a 360mm, but if you're really looking for an upgrade over 280 AIO, you really might want to consider that Custom loop instead of a 360 or 420 AIO.

 

[LazyGamer]

The 360mm does seem to be an upgrade from 280, and a 420 will probably be a small upgrade from a 360mm, but if you're really looking for an upgrade over 280, you really might want to consider that Custom loop instead of a 360 or 420 AIO.

I'd really narrow it further down to what your case can support, what you can afford, and how much trouble you're willing to go to.

Custom loops start at 3x to 4x the price of AIOs, whereas the cost between AIOs is negligible. And since one can still get a noise / performance benefit from upgrading AIO fans, that's usually the best bet.

 

[Riccochet]

Custom loops start at 3x to 4x the price of AIOs

Not really anymore. I can build a basic CPU only single 360 rad loop with DDC pump, tube res, fittings, everything, for under 200.

Now, you can go sky as the limit when it comes to building a loop, since I can also build that same loop for $1000, depending on the brand of parts being used.

But if all you want is the performance Barrow is hard to beat. $30-40 for CPU block, $50-60 for a single 360 rad, $40 100cc res, $50 DDC pump, maybe another $20 in fittings and tube.

I run Barrow rads and they perform great. Also went from an EK CPU block to a Barrow and, honestly, the Barrow performs slightly better. I didn't expect that, but here we are. Was hard to find another AM4 block at the time to replace the EK. And all my fittings, aside from a Bitspower drain valve, are Barrow. I run 16mm hard tubing fittings which cost more, but their soft tubing fittings are cheap.

People just don't want to put in the effort to set up a custom loop, do the proper testing for leaks, or maintenance them every 6-8 months.

 

[Peter_Brosdahl]

People just don't want to put in the effort to set up a custom loop, do the proper testing for leaks, or maintenance them every 6-8 months.

I'd have to admit this is where I'm at. If I had the time I'd do it but these days time when I'm awake and not working, doing chores, errands, cooking, etc., is extremely scarce. Otherwise it's something I've always wanted to do but mine would be a full loop for GPU and CPU. For now though, the AIOs I'm using are getting the job done.

 

[LazyGamer]

Not really anymore. I can build a basic CPU only single 360 rad loop with DDC pump, tube res, fittings, everything, for under 200.

One can certainly scrape the bottom of the barrel, I'll give you that.

But note that you missed the cost of fans as well. You can low-ball on those as well, but you'll pay for it in terms of either limited performance or significantly more noise (and likely not just from fan speed, but also various whines and resonances that can come with cheap or cheaply built fans). It's hard to overestimate how much good fans help.

 

[Brian_B]

People just don't want to put in the effort to set up a custom loop, do the proper testing for leaks, or maintenance them every 6-8 months.

Same as @Peter_Brosdahl . It's not insignificant.

It's a high barrier of entry with cost... sure, you "can" do it for less, but a typical DIY Custom Loop is going to cost more than a typical air cooler, or even AIO. The last custom loop I built was around $300, and that was ... 20 years ago? Granted, almost all of that equipment is still serviceable today (and my son tinkers with it on occasion), so I wouldn't call it wasted money, but i wouldn't go around claim it's "as cheap" as a CM 212 or anything either.

There's a lot more complication in the setup.

There's more to proper maintenance than just "blow out the dust"

There's the liability that it could leak, and if it does - it's probably all on you. No warranty claim to back you up on that. And since you are assembling all the various tubing fittings and such, that probability is much higher than with a pre-assembled AIO (which, admittedly, could also leak)

And if you want to adjust your build or change out any components, it becomes a much bigger, involved task having to deal with fittings and tubing and such in the way now.

I loved doing it when I was younger and more into the building aspect of computers, but now I'm at the age where I want my stuff to just work and work well. I'll leave the tinkering around to the kid on his rig.

----

On a side note - I suspect the reason that Custom Loops are so much more effective than AIOs is a combination of faster pump speeds and better waterblock designs. AIOs tend to use very small pumps integrated into the water block with very small amounts of fluid, whereas a custom loop with a big DDC pump and half liter reservoir is going to move a lot more coolant around faster, which really keeps the coolant from getting as warm coming out of the block. That, and with better waterblocks to make that transfer more efficient from the IHS to the coolant is where you are really seeing the difference. My opinion - I haven't performed any destructive testing or anything on it.

 

[Endgame]

One can certainly scrape the bottom of the barrel, I'll give you that.

But note that you missed the cost of fans as well. You can low-ball on those as well, but you'll pay for it in terms of either limited performance or significantly more noise (and likely not just from fan speed, but also various whines and resonances that can come with cheap or cheaply built fans). It's hard to overestimate how much good fans help.

Are the fans that come with AIO any better than the fans from a 5pack of Artic P12s / P14s? If not, then you're replacing the fans on the AIO as well - I don't think there are any AIOs with Noctua fans.

 

[Brian_B]

Are the fans that come with AIO any better than the fans from a 5pack of Artic P12s / P14s? If not, then you're replacing the fans on the AIO as well - I don't think there are any AIOs with Noctua fans.

Well, most DIY radiators I see don't come with any fan at all, good or bad, which is what I suspect Lazy is referring to. Sure, you can get a five pack for $25, or you can go all out on that as well.

But with an AIO you have a reasonable expectation of it having everything you need out of the box for that price, and that's how they are benchmarked. I don't see many AIO reviews where they go and rip out the stock fans and replace them with Noctuas or anything (although I'm certain some exist - it just isn't the typical review when you are looking at comparisons).

 

[LazyGamer]

Are the fans that come with AIO any better than the fans from a 5pack of Artic P12s / P14s?

That's still a cost, and costs rise dramatically when you step above the P12s and their documented resonance issues.

If not, then you're replacing the fans on the AIO as well

As Brian explained, fans come with AIOs, and in my experience the stock fans while not 'great' are typically better than your average Arctic.

I don't think there are any AIOs with Noctua fans.

ASUS had been shipping a unit with Noctua fans, but as you'd expect, they charged for them!

 

[Endgame]

Well, most DIY radiators I see don't come with any fan at all, good or bad, which is what I suspect Lazy is referring to. Sure, you can get a five pack for $25, or you can go all out on that as well.

But with an AIO you have a reasonable expectation of it having everything you need out of the box for that price, and that's how they are benchmarked. I don't see many AIO reviews where they go and rip out the stock fans and replace them with Noctuas or anything (although I'm certain some exist - it just isn't the typical review when you are looking at comparisons).

And then we're back into the budget conversation, right?

The Artic Liquid freezer II 280mm is around $100 and is a full featured solution. You get better performance than a D15 by around 5 degrees while costing about the same price, but an AIO come with the overhead of being an AIO instead of just an air cooler. There are other AIO options that cost more money within a few degrees difference, but from what I've seen AIOs in general don't seem to get dramatically better than the 280mm models. Let's say I've got a 280mm AIO and I want to improve my temps 15 degrees. Due to pump limitations and block limitations, a 360 or 420 AIO won't yield that 15 degree increase in performance despite costing an extra 25-100%+.

This is where my "sweet spot" statement came from.

 

[Riccochet]

I don't include fans in builds because most people have fans laying around, or their cases already came with fans. And I'm going to be 100% with you, spending $10 per fan or $30 per fan has negligible effect. As long as you are moving some air through the rad it's enough. And you're not going to hear them with headphones on while gaming when they ramp up. My fans are moving at like 800 rpm under normal desktop use and inaudible. You'll hear the pump more than the fans, always.

Even under gaming I run on a "Quiet" fan profile. They ramp up, but only to maybe 1300 rpm. Still can barely hear them. But that pump kicks up and I can hear that running.

 

[LazyGamer]

But that pump kicks up and I can hear that running.

That's definitely the loudest part of AIOs, for sure. That's my main complaint about them, whether on CPUs or on GPUs (I've owned a few of those).

but an AIO come with the overhead of being an AIO instead of just an air cooler.

What overhead are you referring to?

 

[Grimlakin]

I don't OC the only thing my AIO really does for me is give my CPU more headroom to operate and me some peace of mind. Heck the window to my case faces a wall so all of that bling doesn't even matter. Maybe if I looked inside my case all the time?

 

[LazyGamer]

I don't OC the only thing my AIO really does for me is give my CPU more headroom to operate and me some peace of mind. Heck the window to my case faces a wall so all of that bling doesn't even matter. Maybe if I looked inside my case all the time?

If I wanted to try my hand at overclocking again (read: it's mostly pointless now), I'd use an open chassis and an external rad...

 

[Riccochet]

If I wanted to try my hand at overclocking again (read: it's mostly pointless now), I'd use an open chassis and an external rad...

There isn't much benefit anymore to overclocking. But I do undervolt, and oddly enough get higher sustained boost clocks with lower temps that way.

 

[Endgame]

What overhead are you referring to?

An air cooler Lasts basically forever, and if the fan fails there is still a block of metal there. AIO has the potential for pump failure, eventual coolant evaporation, and they are a little less easy to mount. None are terribly big concerns, but it is something when compared to a D15

 

[Brian_B]

This is where my "sweet spot" statement came from.

I totally agree with your sweet spot idea, for what it's worth.